It's on the agenda.

Who needs inexpensive graduate student/student housing with easy access to stores and transit? Why they can just all move up to all those new apartments and condos being built on Cherokee Trail, which is much more expensive and not easily accessible to anything.

bizgrrl's picture

Move them up on the bluff

Move them up on the bluff away from services, then build out services.

I didn't think of that possibility.

fischbobber's picture

We got shot down when we

We got shot down when we brought that idea to the table just like we got shot down with the Morrell /Westland site and the Cedar Bluff site. You clearly don't get it. The TYP is not about helping the homeless. It's about a bunch of people on a power trip. On second thought, maybe you do get it.

sobi's picture

Questions for you, fischbobber.

Who is this "we" that got "shot down?"

What was the "idea" that got "shot down?" Did "we" propose the development of a homeless campus at the intersection of Morrell and Westland and another one at Cedar Bluff Road? Do "we" have land in those places that could be used to build a massive project like that?

What is this "table" to which you speak so mysteriously of having brought "our" "idea?" Did "we" present an "idea" to some formal organization or government body?

Who "shot down" "our" "idea?"

You talk about whatever "we" did like everyone should know what you mean. I do not have any idea, and I might not be the only one who is in the dark. Care to spill some enlightenment?

fischbobber's picture

The we would be the group of

The we would be the group of people brainstorming how and where to to handle the the homeless situation. John Lawler was supposed to attend. It was an open meeting. You would have been welcome.

Land that may be purchased and that is suitable for this project exists all over this city, town, and region. The issue is cost, initial, additional building costs(including surrounding infrastructure), and ongoing.

The three sites mentioned all have clear advantages over both Teaberry and DeBusk.

I understand that it is difficult to make every meeting and read every document, but what has clearly happened is that "pro" TYP forces have been poorly prepared in both the planning and defense of specific projects. Those of us deemed "anti" have had virtually all of our input ignored or denied.

sobi's picture

Your response seems vague to me.

The we would be the group of people brainstorming how and where to to handle the the homeless situation. John Lawler was supposed to attend. It was an open meeting. You would have been welcome.

Saying "the group of people" does not answer my question. Who were they? What makes what they have to say about the issue particularly relevant? Did this group have a meeting to which it invited Lawler? I might have been welcome, but how would I have known about it?

You have made what I think is a serious set of accusations here, fishbobber. One of them relates to public input. If you are going to continue to attack the TYP people for ignoring meaningful public input, you need to show that meaningful input has really been offered. Saying "You could build this somewhere other than where you plan to now" is not meaningful input, and to insist that it is is ridiculous.

You also accuse some vague entity of having "shot down" your "input." To the extent that any "input" was made, again, who blew it off?

Who's the "group?" How did you announce your "open meeting?" What was the "input" offered? Who dismissed your input? You've made specific accusations. Back them up. That should not be hard if you are telling the truth.

fischbobber's picture

It was an open meeting

It was an open meeting organized by the Kingston Woods neighborhood association. When you dropped by to look at the Teaberry site you would have seen flyers as they were posted at the Weigels and around the neighborhood.

The lady that informed me that the Golf Range idea had already been run and nixed was the same woman that explained how PSH was currently working in the apartments in between Hollywood and Forest Heights.

(We actually have what is considered a mainstream scattered site approach currently happening in Knoxville. There are several aspects of our proposed scattered approach that make it unique and subject to debate.)

A lawyer named Stephanie who once lived in Seattle also spoke at the meeting as well as several people experienced with the casework aspect of dealing with the homeless. Other attendees thoughts on this matter are posted on the TYP web site.

As I said, it was my understanding that Lawler backed out of this meeting and scheduled the Arnstein meeting instead.

How much more public can one get with one's input than open public forums? After an standing room crowd at Arnstein that drew people until well past seven thirty, the meeting times were moved back to six and now the only people left by the time I get there are the T.V. news cameramen. Apparently you feel this forum is a valid form of input as I am replying to your post.

The reason given for Golf Range's unsuitability was rehab cost. There would also be the issue of U.T. signing off on a rather different type of real estate transfer than they normally engage in.

Saying "You could build this somewhere other than where you plan to now" is not meaningful input, and to insist that it is is ridiculous.

That's never been my position and once again you have had to resort to lying to justify your pettiness. My objections have been and continue to be about the ongoing lack of long term planning that go into the site plans. The infrastructure did not exist to support the facility at Teaberry nor was there any plan to build it. The emergency plan wouldn't work and there was no plan to annex the surrounding properties into the city to make it work. There was no access to transportation. They were putting the building on a sinkhole that apparently only they were uninformed about. There was no plan in place to make up for lost revenue due to a decrease in property value or sales tax collections at West Town. (Check what happened at the Green Bay, Wi. mall after the good people of Green Bay put their homeless shelter there.) How many different ways can you say incompetent? Wait, I left out my top reason, the one that really chapped my ass. The intersection of Beaverton and Gleason is less than two seconds from a blind hill to the west. These guys designed fatal car accidents into their site plan. All of these concerns are old news and all have been dismissed. Sorry you missed them the first fifty times I posted them.

fischbobber's picture

Pedestrian facilities require

Pedestrian facilities require pedestrian infrastructure. Sidewalks, crosswalks, flashing yellow lights, and proper street drainage for rain runoff was what the site needed.

The fundamental problem with the whole TYP situation is that there is no commitment from either the city nor the TYP developers to the affected neighborhoods. Until the commitment to the current residents becomes a top priority, one would be a fool to support the scattered approach.

Look at the weeds growing out of the road around West Town. The sidewalk on Montvue is so overgrown with weeds that it as all but unusable. The is a weeping willow growing between the median and the road at Cedar Bluff and Park West Blvd. Why would we believe that the city or TYP is telling the truth and acting in good faith? We're not getting the services we are currently paying for. Why would we support this plan and let the city shove us further down the crapper?

Allowing TYP and the city to build a poorly planned facility with no long range plan for funding it's operation, allowing an understaffed facility, (by all accounts except for the city and TYP) and disregarding the basic needs of the residents of these facilities by ignoring the need for pedestrian infrastructure and basic access to transportation is not only stupid, but wrong. Do your homework and study the plans. These guys are ignoring their own mandates. A bad plan is just as bad as no plan.

If what it is going to take to make this work is a tax increase, someone needs to grow a pair, show some leadership and say it.

Rachel's picture

The three sites mentioned all

The three sites mentioned all have clear advantages over both Teaberry and DeBusk.

Would they require rezoning? Are they for sale? Is the price feasible?

fischbobber's picture

Would they require

Would they require rezoning?

Everything is for sale. A working plan guarantees a feasible price. Our MPC and zoning procedures tend to listen to good ideas. This whole process needs a start point.

Rachel's picture

You didn't answer my

You didn't answer my question: would these properties need to be rezoned? That adds a) time to the process, and b) a good opportunity for neighborhoods to shoot down the sites since rezoning not only has to pass MPC, it has to pass the appropriate legislative body.

A working plan guarantees a feasible price.

Say what now?

BTW, everything is NOT for sale. Come try to buy my house.

fischbobber's picture

I don't know if the

I don't know if the properties would require rezoning.

I believe that West Knoxville residents are open to being a part of the homeless solution. That being said, I also think we may be feeling the affects of the times a little harder than other areas of town. Malls are declining in popularity. Cars are becoming expensive to operate. Housing prices are fluctuating wildly in the suburbs and infrastructure improvements have stalled with the downturn in the economy. Many of the houses in the affected areas of the TYP are largely in the 100,000- 200,000 range. Moreover, the residents don't tend to be upwardly mobile, but stable. We've taken our hit. We don't need, nor will we stand idly by while this city administration forces us to take another one.

If the administration brings a comprehensive plan for improvement to neighborhood infrastructure along with a PSH plan it will go through. People aren't opposed to being a part of the homeless solution, they are opposed to bureaucrats having the power to single out their neighborhood and declare that "You're going down!" We've watched this administration focus all it's efforts on the downtown area for the last ten years and now that they've stabilized that area they're trying to export all the inner city problems to the suburbs without the funding to fix them. That's just garbage, Rachael.

We are already carrying our load with regards to percentage of the homeless population. What we're not getting is the rented office space that comes with providing support. We're not getting the infrastructure that comes with addressing solutions. The mission district has bike lanes, sidewalks and bus service connecting the mission district with access to all areas of the center city. We can't even get the four miles of green way necessary to connect us with the city system despite the fact that it's been a project waiting to happen ever since the Ashe administration. I have found this whole argument to be the height of hypocrisy. The Toby's of this debate don't want to give up their funding for the solutions, they just want to get rid of their problem. We are also pay more than our fair share of the load in regards to tax revenue, particularly when one considers what we have gotten back from this administration. West Hills has seen better days. If this project is properly done, it will increase tax revenue over the next fifty years, but based on what there is to be seen of the business plan, this is impossible. Transferring this project to a private entity with no voter oversight is the wrong thing to do.

A working plan guarantees a feasible price by raising revenue in the long run, both in an increase in property values and an increase in sales tax collection. It pays for itself in real terms, revenues, as opposed to the fuzzy math savings that the TYP folks have been touting.

At this point I consider time to be a secondary issue. This administration has picked the most expensive and logistically difficult solution to the homeless issue that is offered by the various TYP planners. The scattered approach was not picked by Dr. Noe, but by committee. If the TYP is not committed to expend the energy to do this properly they would be well served to go back to the drawing board now.

Sorry about the rant. My wife is at a symposium this morning and I made the coffee. I suspect I might have made it too strong.

fischbobber's picture

As for me and my feelings

As for me and my feelings about the whole matter, I am not the one who refuses to identify myself.
Cue "vernon" and "whooshe65" and the rest of the bullshit noise machine.

The first thing Vernon did when he came to this discussion was give out his full name and essentially his address.

That would make your post a lie.

We both know that there are currently no dedicated PSH facilities operating under the TYP's proposed guidelines. That would make your request nothing more than a ignorant assertion designed in a vain attempt to make you appear intelligent.

Do you dream about whooshe?

fischbobber's picture

In my second post I gave my

In my second post I gave my name. Try to keep up. You can always tell the self absorbed crappy teachers.

Sincerely,

Bob Fischer

Rachel's picture

We both know that there are

We both know that there are currently no dedicated PSH facilities operating under the TYP's proposed guidelines.

I thought there was. On Cox Street.

fischbobber's picture

You could be right although

You could be right although there is a highly technical semantics contest going on here and I was under the impression that that facility addressed situational homelessness and not chronic.

I stand corrected but would like to note we can't count that one because it is in West Knoxville.

Sorry about the error.

vernon's picture

I completely agree , one

I completely agree , one thing i continue to hear ,even on this forum is that the TYP folks have screwed up just about every aspect of implementation of this plan,the scattered site approach is all about downtown politics.At Teaberry the residents did not need sidewalks,At Debusk they need no sidewalks,At Flenniken they need no parking,I mean come on-quit lying to us.
Because of their arrogance, these guys have zero credibility,

jbr's picture

Someone has to use that

Someone has to use that pedestrian bridge over the river.

whooshe65's picture

Metulj, Yes, Vernon did. But

Metulj,

Yes, Vernon did. But you won't. Why?...

...This from a group funded by who knows who and who knows what. I am not the one who refuses to identify myself...

...Cue "vernon" and "whooshe65" and the rest of the bullshit noise machine.

Issues, Issues, Issues.

Not People, People, People.

No Matter how hard you try to make this about the people, it seems we just want to keep talking about issues.

Very interesting. Keep trying though, its kinda of fun to watch.

fischbobber's picture

You left out transportation,

You left out transportation, infrastructure, neighborhood involvement, church involvement, case management and servicing the needs of the target group. There's this neat document written in 2005 by a fellow named Dr. Noe that's all about this thing called the Ten Year Plan. You ought to read it.

R. Neal's picture

The issue is

The issue is parks/cost/corruption/etc

You forgot addiction.

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