Some state law makers (Ron Ramsey) are opposed to the idea of doubling the size of Frozen Head State Park (Morgan County)"

I have to agree with the idea of not doubling the size. Because we hunt deer and often hog in the area round Frozen Head and have become friends with some wonderful land owners up there we would hate to see it lost to both hunting and future mining. That area has proven positive for not only coal but oil and as we all know the country needs more LOCAL oil if we are ever going to stand up against those who sell it to us.

If we could just drill in both Alaska and the Gulf of Mexico I would say, let the land around Frozen Head go, but right now it looks like both of those sites are not going to be open to us.

Also if you have not been in Frozen Head State Park you have no idea of the beauty of the region just outside of it. Great cabin and even home sites are all over those hills and unlike the Townsend area the people who live up there tell us shallow wells (some less than 40 feet) often produce water.

Lets keep that little patch of heaven for us, we may need it in the near future for many great reasons.

Anyone can see if we are going to fight the OIL war we have to have LOCAL wells. Until the hydrogen car can come on line we will be using gas from yes the BIG OIL MEN, and the more local oil we can pump the less it will hurt us when we fill up.

I have two SUVs and a hybrid and I can tell you the hybrid is not doing what the dealer said it would in mileage! The SUV's are used for the farm and for taking children to school while we use the hybrid for short runs around town.

Drill Alaska, drill the gulf and if the oil is in TN drill right here, it is the only way we can keep driving until the hydrogen cars are brought on line.

Most of this land is already owned by the state or Bowaters. The mineral rights are up for grabs though. As far as this small section of the cumberlands making a differnce in American Oil Production is like trying to compare a penny to 10 billion dollars. There is actually a large amount of coal production and drilling taking place in this region. If you want to talk about our dependence on oil, it has very little to do with local production, foreign dependence on oil is a whole different ball game. If the Cumberlands could make a positive impact on American Oil production, dont you think Bush and his gang would have already invaded us?

If the Cumberlands could make a positive impact on American Oil production, dont you think Bush and his gang would have already invaded us?"

With out new refineries we are just stuck in this country. As for the crooks running D.C. they are on the way out and not looking at picking our bones this late in the game.

Hunting in that area is wonderful and I would love to buy a few hundred acres and put two hundred cabins on them. Rental cabins are impacting Townsend in a very positive way and so would these, but not if the area falls to the government.

If our own park would just charge five dollars a car to enter for the day it could generate enough money to get back to both mowing the areas along the road and even re building those cabins at Elkmont. If they were done right that entire area would be booked year round! We just don't look at the big picture when we start to beg the government to take land.

Is that you, Walker?

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Part of the plans leave it open for hunting. I was not aware anyone said it would take away hunting property from anywhere. The project also includes working forest easements that allow for working lands to keep producing economic benefits.
"If our own park would just charge five dollars a car to enter for the day" well I think that is a good point, but they already do charge us for our parks,= taxes.

If you want to lose this area to hunting and recreation, then leave it for the developers. The Governor's plan preserves the land for traditional uses, such as hunting. It also allows for wells and mines, but in an environmentally regulated manner. Surface mines will be prohibited, as I understand it.

I had hoped that we would get a better and more comprehensive press release about all this and maybe we will soon. Morgan County holds such a rich treasure of Tennessee's natural Heritage.

We need to set it aside from from the worst of modern society, now, while we still can.

I signed the petition.

Steve

And why do we need cabins at Elkmont? Ski Mt. and Wears Valley are covered with them."

The same reason clusters of them dot Yellowstone (the first park) and that is to give people a controlled park experience.

Elkmont would be a very special controlled slice of history (remember its foundation was private ownership) that would both remind visitors of the way it used to be while taking care of the land under and around the structures.

Who is walker?

I know, folks go back and forth on it..but like the Wonderland Hotel and other great sites in those mountains it will soon be lost.

The history did not start in 1923 when Mrs. Davis came back from Yellowstone and decided to get a park just like it about forty miles away from Knoxville.

Because you live in South Maryville you are bound to have met an Ogle or even a McTeer. These families were in the mountains long before the "rich" Mrs. Davis came up with the idea of the park and theirs is the real history.

Parks are not places to look over the wall and wonder about they are areas to walk in and for short periods places to even live in. As for Frozen Head, those folks need jobs up there and cabins along with the retail that follows would be wonderful for them.

I think there are several good ideas about how to handle accomodations in a gateway area which is exactly what Morgan County will become if we can protect this land. I prefer the idea of the private sector operating outside the boundaries and being governed by local municipalities.

For the moment, Our task is to help the Governor protect the most biologically important lands in Tennessee, NOW, before it is too late. We will not have this chance again.

I watched several impressive slide shows at the Land and Water Conservation Forum. They included the importance of the lands we are trying to protect, the course of development in Tennessee up until the present time, and what will happen to these lands if we don't act now.

Speaking as a developer, I think we developers need to be protected from ourselves. Let's put certain places off limits to avarice and put good guidelines on the rest of our land. This is how we can make Tennessee a great place in the future.

Steve

Let's put certain places off limits to avarice and put good guidelines on the rest of our land."

If you are a developer then you might have read about St. Johns Island? A very O L D oil/railroad family bought the place, opened a resort that you can visit today if you have a grand a night and then had the US turn the rest of the island into a national park. Nice move!

Key today is to trust those who get the land and lets face it the suits in D.C. are not our friends or for that matter friends of the land.

Lets get them out of the mix, invite folks in to buy it and see what happens.

Thank you guys for signing the petition. I am glad to see it started a conversation about conserving our natural resources which is a conversation that is not taking place enough in my opinion. I feel that this project is in a league of it's own, an innovation in some ways. There are plenty of other areas in the Cumberland region that are prime for private development outside of this projects area.
If anyone on here is actually interested and serious about development in this area, feel free to contact me and I can lead you to some information and sources. The petition is pushing 100 signatures right now, when it reaches 150 I am taking it to Nashville and hopefully I will get to set down with some people to talk about it. Once again, thanks for your help.
Nick Bishop

Nick,

Have you talked to Tommy Kilby about this? We need to see where he stands on this.

Steve

I have been trying to get in touch with him, I am sending him my stuff and we`ll see what he wants to do with it. I imagine he will be very helpful considering he`s the chair of the Enviromental and conservation. I imgaine he is for the project. I will keep you posted. Either way I am for it, and I think this project needs to be accomplished.

One of the few good purposes of government is actually protecting our common interests. If Ted Turner were buying the Brimestone and Emory tracts, I might feel differently.

Profit drives most of the private sector development in cases like this, not a heartfelt desire to protect something for our children. "

Name one time the boys and girls in D.C. protected one common interest of those who elected them? You are dead right about the profit driving them and that is why we need to think long and hard before we get into ASKING them to take land. Also if a developer is behind it, (as is the case here, cause they admitted they were one) lets ask how much land just OUTSIDE this new part addition they are going to or already have bought?

The US government is not Green Peace, they are all for sale and never act on anything that won't slide money in their hands. Again on this one dig a bit deeper with your passion in check and see what is really going on.

I have just signed the petition and emailed a link to this thread to twelve friends.

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Also if a developer is behind it, (as is the case here, cause they admitted they were one) lets ask how much land just OUTSIDE this new part addition they are going to or already have bought?

There will always be OUTSIDE land, unless you want the government to just take all the land in the world. The issue of someone owning land that borders such and such is just a fact of life. This project has nothing to do with DC. It has to do with TN. Which I think is a good thing. I would be a little worried if I had to depend on The Bush administration or Bob Coker when it came to land development issues. Yes I am sure someone, somewhere will personally or politicaly benift from this, as someone always does at some point, but thats just life, if the world was perfect it wouldnt be, which is why we need to protect such places as this area of The Cumberlands that are about as close to the idea of perfect I have ever seen in this world and life we in habit.

You need to understand that this is a State of Tennessee initiative. Get on board with us. We need this to happen"

You need to see the worry we have when a developer tries to push people to back a land grab by any government, TN or Federal.

Again, follow the money before you sign any dang thing and ask just WHO is going to win in this.

ask just WHO is going to win in this.

Since you asked, my guess is something in the neighborhood of 10-15 rare plants, maybe 5-10 rare animals, and at least a dozen rare natural communities.

You need to see the worry we have when a developer tries to push people to back a land grab by any government, TN or Federal.

ladyvol, relax! I'm not much of a developer and the ones I am involved in are green as I can make them. We are putting 70% of our land in greenways, commons, and conservation easements.

The Governor's initiative is actually keeping this land OUT of the hands of developers.

And Mykhailo, You are low on your counts. I hope to have a power point put together soon that will show just how badly we need to save this area for future generations. Three cheers for Governor Bredesen for pushing this. He promised to make it up to us when he had to cut land purchase money in order to balance the state budget and now he has.

And he has managed to leverage the State's money. We are buying a Buck fifty for 82 cents! There are several initiatives Governor Bredesen has gotten behind that will benefit this state long after we are gone. That takes vision.

Steve

Flashback...

of 10-15 rare plants, maybe 5-10 rare animals, and at least a dozen rare natural communities."

Name three of the animals and 4 or the plants

Look here is the deal. One of two things will happen to this the land on the plateau. A) The state will buy it, preserve, conserve , protect, and actually put it to good economic use for the entire region and state. Which would be looking out for the best interest of the ultimate good for the majority of the people. The money used to buy this land is TN tax payers money, not Sen Ramseys or whoever else is against it, so it should be spent on the people and for the peoples benefit. If the state gets the land, it will be managed based on the idea of long term development and sustainable use, which means this land will be here long after we are and long after all the other areas like the smokies are destroyed from development and pollution. The small rural counties on the plateau will reap the tourism tax dollars, which will not be as much as Dollywood and the Smokies bring in, but it will be a large amount to us.
B) This land will go to timber companies most likely, and it will have about a million stumps on it, then nobody will get to use it, not even private developers because after its destroyed by the quick buck companies from out of state, nobody will want to buy the land of a million stumps.
Nobody will be able to hunt on this land after the trees are gone either because most of the food sources for deer will be destroyed, and the deer that will be left will be able to see us in our orange vest and orange hats from miles and miles away with the trees gone.
Another factor is that this land could be used to add more windmills to produce clean power. But if it goes to a timber company, doubt that will happen. I just dont see how this project is a bad idea.

I just dont see how this project is a bad idea.

It appears that most folks here (including those who signed the petition) agree with that. Not sure about the one or two. Or is it just one?

Your logic on this topic is making my head hurt."

It is hard for some to understand, but for those who have seen this type of thing in the past it is easy.

Snail Darter? That thing is still around but it swims under floating docks near million dollar homes.

Sorry your head hurts, but it happens at times when you can't win even if you don't care who you are sparing with.

Did you ever visit the Wonderland? How about the old hotel at Montvale? It was a before my time but the Wonderland wasn't and I thought it was a bit of a bore.

Wait. I think I read the article wrong. So this isn't just about doubling the size of Frozen Head, but about a ca 125k acre area? In that case, never mind, since that's basically an area the size of BSF. Yeah, my numbers are way too low.

I don't understand any of that stuff and I just don't get your point."

When people hide behind a cause to move land into the hands of the government be afraid, very afraid. As for the alternative of millions of stumps, give me a break. Loggers don't work that way, even the ones you are trying to say will take over if the land is not managed. The injection of the windmill idea sounds rather "last ditch" to me. Ask those who live in Oak Ridge if looking that those bird killers on the hill is worth the small about of power they almost produce? Nuclear power (France has had it for 34 years and it works beautifully) is a much better answer than slow rotating props along a bare hillside.

As for the issue at hand if the land does turn into a field of a million stumps (by the way if you have visited Yellowstone since the fire of 88 you have seen some beautiful places where all those lodge poll pines were) the earth will take it back while folks are using it.

So, Nick, is there a map anywhere online that gives at least a general idea of what Bredesen is proposing? Thx.

Consider me signed sealed and delivered.

________________________________________________________

"You can't fix stupid..." ~ Ron White"

"I never said I wasn't a brat..." ~ Talidapali

I will sign.

Yep Yellowstone is not TN, it does not have the growing season we have here, but for some reason those meadows are all doing just fine.

Anyway, you can have my name..sorry I questioned your thoughts, won't happen again.

If you need a taste of Elkmont, try Fontana Village.

Also, try not to compare Yellowstone to GSMP so much, Yellowstone has 1/3 the visitors of GSMP and 4 times the land.

Yellowstone
2.9 million visitors 2006
2,219,790 acres

GSMP
9.3 million visitors 2006
522,051 acres

"You need to see the worry we have when a developer tries to push people to back a land grab by any government, TN or Federal"

LV, Please explain where this is a land grab. It appears to be a willing sale between private corporations and the state. You can argue that our tax dollars are better spent on education or health care or not taken in the first place and these are valid arguments that others may or may not agree with but that's not what I'm hearing.

The best I can come up with is that you are resentful because these sales will benefit adjoining landowners. Are you reacting to Insider Trading (real estate version)? Do you feel that reduced competition will cause cabin prices to skyrocket beyond your reach?

Are you simply longing for a vacation spot surrounded by wilderness? There are still cabins to be found in some deep reaches of our national forests if you know where to look. And though I've suffered Cabin Fever along with the best of 'em I've come to the realization that having my own private retreat isn't the way to go.

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Less is the new More - Karrie Jacobs

Some folks use ideological arguments against land protection and back them up with some statements that aren't true. (Species that live in a particular river environment probably don't survive under anybody's dock. Dr. Etnier will have a good laugh at that one) But that is beside the point. What I want Tenessee to focus on is a future. Not the Future we are headed for right now, but the Future as we want it to be. Frankly, if we leave things to the forces of ungoverned capitalism, East Tennessee will look like a combination of Kingston Pike, in the areas where the good businesses have left and gone to Turkey Creek,gated golf course communities, and a trailer park. I don't think anyone wants that.

Development is like one of those mushroom fairy rings that looks magical until you realize that the reason the mushrooms are growing in an ever widening circle is that they have eaten everything they can live on and move ever outward to survive. At some point they run into the next family of fungi moving their way and everybody dies.

Let's paint a better picture. Let's protect as much of our heritage as we can and let the developers be forced to make do with the hundreds of square miles that are left. Then let's impose "Low Impact Development" practices Statewide. This is working in other areas and will work just fine here. The developers I talk to say they just want to know what the rules are and for the officials to make everybody play by the same ones.

Step one: Support Governor Bredesen in his efforts to save some of today's Tenessee Natural Heritage for the future.

Peace,

Steve

Steve, do you remember those figures you posted some time back about oxygen production per acre of woodland? There is another great argument for this project.

My little oxygen farm should soon be producing enough to thwart the efforts of an SUV driver or two and I have some pines in the mix generating all year.

"The pine tree is the oxygen factory of the south, producing more oxygen than any other tree."

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My little oxygen farm should soon be producing enough to thwart the efforts of an SUV driver or two and I have some pines in the mix generating all year."

New study out of Oak Ridge is really rocking some of the thoughts on trees and their production of "oxygen" as for SUVs yep we have more than a few of them here, but we also have a hybrid and one of our SUV's does better at the pump than it does.

If you are a tree person (we have turned two hay fields into baby woods over at our family farm) please do not plant pines! There is a host of problems with those trees and the insects they attract. Hardwoods take longer to grow but they do much more in leaf cover and "oxygen" production, check it out at ask.com.

Anyone who will plant a few trees is OK in our book!

sign it

Mind telling me what brand of SUV does better than a hybrid? What kind of mileage?

Not being snarky here, I might want to buy one.

____________________________________
Less is the new More - Karrie Jacobs

I have been looking for this Oak Ridge study refuting photosynthesis but I have not found it. Do you have a handy link"

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According to the Georgia Forestry Commission one acre of healthy trees will produce enough oxygen per day to support 18 humans, more if you conserve as Danny Aiello did in Harlem Nights.

This efficient SUV vs hybrid BS reminds me of a guy I used to work with years ago who vowed he had once bagged a twelve pound pheasant. He also claimed the uncanny ability to smell nitrogen, a veritable human leak detector.

He bought a brand new Renault Dauphin and bragged of its miserly fuel consumption. His calculations were even greater when we started slipping a gallon of gasoline into his tank from time to time. When we quit augmenting his supply, he was all over the mechanics at Clayton Motors.

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he was all over the mechanics at Clayton Motors."

Remember when they sold the Datsun 2000? A screamer that later became the z car..MUCH later!

The first car from across the pond I had was an Opel station
wagon...90 raging horses and 3 in the floor. Put an 8 track in the thing, glued the two speakers to the left and right back side glass and played the sound track from the Graduate over and over. Finally rolled it in a snow storm north of Friendsville in 68 and had let it go to the bone orchard.

Those cars were both great fun to drive and with gas pushing 40 cents a gal for LEADED they giggled as they drove by the pumps. Today it is all about safety. When you see the west knoxville babe in her Yukon, talking on the phone, putting on her make up and trying to change stations on her XM you know you are going to die unless you are riding in some Detroit iron. Got some very upper end bikes but have to haul them to the green ways to ride, streets are owned by the big cars and trucks!

Har de.

Yup, I was thinking about this as I drove around this afternoon. It's not the MPG thing because a lot of small SUVs get better mileage than the hybrid truck. It's just the refusal to engage and to answer questions.

It's too bad, because LV was looking to be an interesting poster if s(he) were real.
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Less is the new More - Karrie Jacobs

My view is its your perspective of 'productive'

Set aside as I understand the Governor proposes the land is potentially continually productive for everyone on the planet in some form or another. Be it financial, theraputic, health, etc.

With Ramsey's approach it is productive to a significantly smaller susbet of the population in a significantly more limited way. Fewer folks getting bigger piece of a financial pie.

New cars get a lot better emissions all around. I can really tell the difference while riding my bike around Cades Cove.

But if(when) I got a new car I think I'd travel more so I have to wonder....

Either way we need the trees to offset the emissions.

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Less is the new More - Karrie Jacobs

Somebody ought to do a study comparing emission reductions in car exhaust v. emission reductions at TVA coal-fired power plants since 1970.

P.S. Mamaw, take a look at the Ford Freestyle (which will be the Taurus X next year). The FWD version (not the AWD) puts up pretty good MPG numbers, even compared to the Ford Escape Hybrid. It ain't no Prius, but it hauls almost as much stuff as an Explorer and can be easily configured to seat seven.

Thanks for the tip Bubba. Will a freestyle haul 4' plywood? Does the rear window open? I imagine it passes the camping test (i.e. can I sleep in it without claustrophobia). Since I can't buy a cabin (sob,sob) in all these protected woods I'll just have to camp.

Or I might go the other direction and by a hybrid Fit and a dual fuel truck for hauling/camping. Or I might do nothing automotively. Who knows.

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Less is the new More - Karrie Jacobs

I wondered about that as well, Betty when I noticed that peculiar little habit of putting a quotation mark only at the end of the quote just like the Mouth of the South used to do. There's something else I can't quite put my finger on, too.

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